471E4--Week 5 Questions/Comments--Thursday

It is said in the forward that female authors such as Virginia Woolf were institutionalized. Is it because they were educated women that had been successful or were they really crazy? Is the "True Woman" someone real, or someone women of the time aspired to be? ~Emily Barry

In regards to Emily´s question, I believe some women, like Virginia Woolf, truly did suffer from depression. However, I think part of the question that we´ve been struggling with as a whole this semester is the issue of how to actually define ¨mental illness¨. I would like to know how the vision of the ¨True Woman¨ transformed into the ideal of the ¨New Woman¨, and how these two standards existed side by side. How did the ¨frail woman¨fit into the issue as well? We've also looked at how the asylums in the mid-19th century dealt with a paternal sort of role since superintendents and their institutions were meant to guide and care their patients (much like children), so I'm curious as to how this patriarchal view looked upon "insane" women and their roles as True and New Women. --Chelsea Chin Excessive religiosity is cited as a symptom of madness in both Elizabeth Stone’s and Elizabeth Packard’s stories. The explanations from the preface about female reformers make sense—the women were operating outside the domestic sphere, and this crossed a line. But why excessive religion? I thought that women from this period were expected to be a religious and moral authority in the home. --Stef L  If the domestic sphere is the place that "true women" must remain in order to protect their sanity, how was it justifiable to remove them from that safe haven in order to cure them at an asylum? I feel like the "True Woman" argument is weakened when doctors and asylum superintendents argue that the only way to treat an insane woman is to remove her from the place that is considered the place she must remain to be sane. Does that all go out the window once a person is considered insane? Is she incapable of returning to "true womanhood?" --Carly W. On page 27 the author states that there was a “call for a separation of the sexes in different buildings within the same asylum”, however, in my opinion this does not follow the ideal of the Moral Treatment that they began establishing in many asylums. If they wanted the patients to have a normal life as possible I feel that they needed the interaction from the opposite sex as long as it was supervised. –Courtney Collier While reading the Phebe Davis account I feel that she had a very clever thought when she stated that “women are much more excitable than men, for their minds are more active; but they must be kept in a nut-shell because they are women”. This was a thought that was really before her time. In today’s society there are many studies that show the differences between the mind and bodies of men and women. Obviously back then they knew they were different but instead of accepting that belief many physicians just blamed the women. – Courtney Collier Courtney, that quote really stuck with me too! - Katie I loved the quote in the forward ,“I have changed my opinion since then, materially, and willingly admit I was insane, and my most pronounced symptom was that I married him.” It’s pretty awesome that she could have a sense of humor after what she had been through! – Katie Tryon It boggles me that women who were pregnant or recently pregnant were thought of as crazy for having emotional breakdowns! Wouldn’t this have been common during the centuries before? Why send them to asylums now? Also, what is considered a mental breakdown and what is considered just emotions? - Katie Tryon Katie, it's not that surprising that women who were pregnant or recently pregnant were thought of as crazy. I think that people had no other way to explain the emotion changes that women were experiencing so when the asylum emerged it seemed as logical place for husbands to place these women. It's more just a lack of knowledge. I'm also confused by the accusations of being overly religious. Wouldn't this be something that was seen as good in the community?-Maggie Nunn I think that the reason that being overly religious was viewed as insane because, although it was seen as good for women to be religious, if they're overly religious it may take away from other aspects of the domestic sphere they're in charge of maintaining. Basically, anything in extremes was viewed as insane because it disrupted the delicate balance of "true womanhood" --Carly W. It amazed me how clear all first hand accounts were and the injustices these women went through. I especially found Lemira Clarissa Pennell’s suggested reforms to be interesting. – Katie Tryon The author of the introduction claims there was a only a devious element involved when committing women, likewise the narratives used in the following chapters paint the worst picture possible. I do not doubt the validity of these accounts but question if the examples were cherry-picked to promote the thesis. Kirkbride’s second wife would likely disagree with many of the points presented, and even Nellie Bly would probably say that her entrance to the asylum system was surrounded by well meaning, if not deceived, men. –Scott Campbell Patient Phebe Davis wrote, “most of [the] Drs. that are employed in lunatic asylums do much more to aggravate the disease than cure it.” She goes further to challenge the doctors’ egos and the asylum culture that caters to it. I think she has a point. There seems to be a common thought too that any patient who disagrees with the culture, or points out a flaw, is dismissed because they are “insane.” –Scott Campbell I’m going to be honest… I have brain strain! This week has been a killer and I would like nothing more that the “rest cure”. I would to just rest in bed and get fat. Oh, wait! By rest you mean no television and bathroom… just kidding, I’ll take intellectual pursuits. –Kasey Moore

I would like to know more about the generation contentions between True and New womanhood. How many True women were against allowing their daughters to be New women because it was bordering on insanity? How many True women hid their “insane” ways and pushed their daughters to be New women? There seems to be contention between the generations not only with daughter but sons. Because there is a New women, there must be a New man who accepts the New women. I wonder how much of this change is from women pushing for it or men perspective changing (economics changing). –Kasey Moore

I found the author’s notion of the frail women interesting. She was unlike the New Woman and was not like the True Woman of the era, but she was more or less stuck in limbo in between the two. These frail women were seen as neither a threat to male dominance or useful in the home life. Is this the reason as to why these women were targeted for psychological issues? Could a “useless” male have been brought to the same standards and be labeled as psychologically unfit for society? –Jack Hylan

True Womanhood may be a concept that was used during the 1850s but it still seems to apply to women today. Many women are constantly trying to be the perfect mother and wife while also trying to succeed in a career. Women still seem to be expected to be able to fulfill all these duties without a problem, no matter how much strain is actually put on them. But this may not only apply to women and mother’s anymore but also to children, who are from a young age pushed to over achieve in school in order to go to a college and to many extra activities. This puts a burden on a child who feels like they cannot rise up to their parents expectations, thus causing many problems. - Morgan H.

Elizabeth T. Stone does not recall any odd behavior on her part until she was given medicine. Is she using her account of her experience with the medicine to show that she thinks that the medicine was used to make patients seem insane when they actually were not? -Joanna Jourdan

Am I mistaken in thinking that we previously discussed how at least equal numbers of men and women were committed to asylums, if not more men? If not, then women being "more emotional, sentimental, and impulsive than men" as Geller and Harris say, doesn't seem to have made them more likely than men to be "victims of insanity." -Joanna Jourdan